Audio Program #4 Roundtable Doctrinal Discussion on Trinitarianism
You are invited to listen in as Dr. Dave Orrison; Pastor Ethan More; Brian Irwin; Dr. Mary Wilkinson; Jean Rittenberg; and myself, share our hearts and convictions pertaining to the contrasts of the teachings of this smaller movement of trinitarianism vs. the essential; clear teachings of the gospel, compared. All friends who have joined this roundtable discussion believe in the Trinity (Godhead) of Father; Son & Holy Spirit, but reject the movement of the inclusiveness of all mankind having been brought into Christ; in an objective reality; apart from faith, which is the form of trinitarianism that is being addressed here.
Most if not all of the teachers who are currently sharing this teaching deny that they are embracing and promoting universalism. This is a major point of contention and dispute, and is at the heart of the concerns of all of us who are apart of the roundtable discussion during, Audio Program #4 and the previous 3 audio programs.
If after listening to this message or any of the previous ones, and find **specific** mis-representations, please share your **specific** corrections and concerns.
We hope you find this and all audio programs on this site, a blessing.
Prayerfully Yours,
in Christ,
Dave
Movement of Grace
Thursday, May 5, 2011
Audio Program #4 Roundtable Doctrinal Discussion on Trinitarianism
5 comments:
I would just like to say that I've listened to Steve McVey for about 15 yrs now, as well as many others, i.e., Major Ian Thomas, Bob George, Malcolm Smith, Bill Gillham, and I've not heard ANY of them preach or teach what you're saying on these blogs that you're hearing. I'm just flabbergasted hearing these things. All of the aforementioned teachers "have" taught, as they should, that the entire world is "reconciled" to God through Jesus Christ - 2 Cor. 5:19 says so. It goes on to say in the next verses that we're to be "ministers of that message - the message of reconciliation"...and then "implores" those listening to be reconciled to God...since He has reconciled them. As you well know, I'm sure, scripture states that men are enemies of God IN THEIR MINDS. The enmity is on MAN'S side, not God's.
Further, the men above have taught for years that it's the RESURRECTION that is the most important part of the equation, because Paul the apostle even stated that "without the RESURRECTION" we are all to be PITIED!" He said that AFTER the cross of Christ! Now...why would we be "pitied" if the cross had already occurred? Because you have to go back to the garden, and see what was LOST....mainly, the LIFE of God within His creature. God had LEFT the vessel! Now, instead of GOD'S image emanating through the creature, it was Adam's image being manifested. This is why, of course, Christ had to bypass the "empty" fallen line of vessels, and be born of a virgin.
This is what Jesus meant when He said, "You MUST be born again!" That is the important issue that I don't see being discussed on this blog by anyone. It's NOT about "reconciliation" only...as these fine men (listed above) has always stated....it's about being INDWELLED BY THE LIFE OF GOD. That, and only THAT will do! That is SALVATION. Not "reconciliation." Reconciliation only CLEANSED the vessels in order to "prepare" any vessel who will "open the door" to the RISEN Lord Jesus, as He continues to "knock at the door of their hearts!"
If Jesus had NOT resurrected...then He would not have become a "Life-giving Spirit" (I Cor. 15:45); and we would not have seen Him giving HIS SPIRIT to the apostles, first of all, in the upper room AFTER His resurrection (John 20:22). He said He was the resurrection...and THE LIFE! The way, the truth, and THE LIFE; He came that we should have LIFE...and have it more abundantly.
THIS is what I see Steve McVey and the others teaching, and that, sirs, is NOT universalism! That's saying that the "Jars" are prepared....and the "whosoever will's" are to answer the call of the RISEN Lord as He knocks on their hearts, in order to be BORN AGAIN OF HIS SPIRIT.
As we know in Romans 1:21...."God is Spirit...and He must be understood THROUGH what HE has made...." Mankind must have GOD'S Spirit in them in order for Him to manifest who HE is to the world. And, again, Paul stated that if He did NOT rise from the dead we are to be PITIED! The containers would remain EMPTY...devoid of the Spirit of God within.
- continued -
So, you can have CLEANSED jars....whom God is no longer angry at...and whom God has reconciled to Himself....but that does NOT mean they are BORN AGAIN...and INDWELLED by His RISEN Spirit! The two are not the same.
As Bob George has so aptly put it in his book, "Classic Christianity," you can look at the process of canning to get a very real look at what salvation is. In order to FILL the jars you must first "CLEANSE" them...get them prepared. Once cleansed of all filth....you then FILL them. After filling, you then SEAL them in order to PRESERVE the contents.
I honestly believe you owe these teachers an apology, and then also hope that you will begin, yourselves, to understand the DIFFERENCE between RECONCILIATION and BEING BORN AGAIN...which, without it....the cross is null and void. If Christ hadn't raised from the dead....even after all His work on the cross...even after saying, "It is finished!"......Paul says we would have been PITIED if He hadn't arisen.
That was a powerful statement to make, and one that jumped off the pages to me at one time. We, as Christians, are ALWAYS focused on the cross...while the NT writers were always focused on the RESURRECTION, and rightly so.
The GOOD NEWS OF GREAT JOY....is that any man, woman, boy or girl, who has already been CLEANSED...and is PREPARED for His coming in....can rejoice in their being cleansed.....and will know that God is not holding their sins against them....if they're told by those who understand it. Because most do not hear that TRUTH...they run FROM God...and think that His is still holding sins against them....and so their ONLY sin is UNBELIEF in Christ, and His absolute REQUIREMENT of FILLING THEM with HIS Spirit. They think they can do it on their own. THAT....will be their undoing...just as an astronaut cannot enter space without a space suit.....mankind cannot enter the Kingdom of God without the KING within the vessel. The TEMPLE made WITHOUT human hands.
And, also, if I may.....I saw where you say it's not right to mention a person's name, and yet you do just that in one of your posts, i.e., "Steve McVey"...which is the only way I knew who you were speaking about. I chalk that one up to "human nature"....or "the flesh," and so just had to laugh, because it just proves the bible correct once again! Judge not lest you be judged...and all that.
Finally, and this will be the last of my post (thank you for letting me sound off, btw)....I have no CLUE what you mean by "Trinitarianism." If you mean that Steve McVey believes in the "Trinity," I say "Amen!" The bible itself lets us know that there is ONE God...in THREE (3) Persons. How THAT is wrong is beyond me. I hope you will explain HOW he is wrong to teach that there is a TRINITY. Is there some OTHER meaning of "Trinitarianism?" If there is, I haven't heard of it. I haven't seen ONE HINT of "Universalism" in Steve McVey's teachings, and would appreciate you sharing WHERE (in which article/book/video) you saw him do so. Thank you.
Sadly I've loved Mcvey's teaching for years, but he has only recently begun teach universalist principles, stating, "I understand the Universalist passion for inclusion and share 100% in their enthusiasm for that reality..." Steve clearly embraces inclusion in Christ without the need for faith or decision on behalf of the believer.
He rejects the label of universalism for only two reasons: 1) TIME of reconciliation (before or after death regardless of belief), & 2) FOCUS on eternal destination, though in agreement with everyone being saved independent of a personal choice for salvation (He feels universalist focus too much on the afterlife, but agrees with them about everyone being saved regardless of any decision of faith).
So, though he rejects the label, he would disagree with you, Linda, instead thinking everyone IS ALREADY SAVED independently of faith or belief on their part. I believe this is why others are labeling his form of Trinitarianism as universalist - it has the same end result.
These are Steve's own thoughts expressed here:
http://gracewalkministries.blogspot.com/2011/02/should-we-be-universalists-trinitarians.html
Dear Linda (and whom it concerns),
I, as well as the promoters of this blog, have benefited immensely from the grace teachers you have defended in your posts. People to People remains my favorite ministry. As the post above has accurately articulated, Grace Walk sadly has taken a radical shift from their earlier leanings, to a position very closely aligned with universalism. In these current leanings, hell is relegated to a subjective experience, and is no longer viewed as eternal separation, and God's wrath is now redefined as God's love.
You can investigate this further by going to Steve McVey's blog where he admits that he is promoting Trinitarianism, and explains his beliefs. This is much different than mere orthodox belief in the trinity.
Post a Comment